Taking an agnostic’s challenge March 9, 2007
Posted by Alien Drums in Christianity, Evolution, Homosexuality, Jesus, Prayer, Religion.trackback
I have an agnostic friend who doesn’t understand why more Christians do not stand up to intolerant, judgmental Christians. She has a point
“When I hear intolerant Christians having a public fit about people who believe in evolution or are gay or who don’t agree with prayer in school, saying that such people are doomed to hell and ought to be silenced, it makes a difference when I’m thinking about heading to church on Sunday,” Holly writes.
She has a point. I accept my own responsibility for failing to speak up against such voices. I think those of us who are more tolerant are hesitant to publicly criticize a fellow believer; but maybe that’s just an excuse.
Let me go on record regarding the things Holly mentioned:
– I do not think faith in Christ rules out acceptance of the theory of evolution. In fact, I suspect that’s how God did it; but I don’t know. I don’t trust those who rule out evolution, nor do I trust those who have more faith in a theory than in God. History has shown science to be just as fallible as Christians.
– I think Christians who have a fixation on the gay issue have deeper issues at work. The Bible says homosexual behavior is wrong, so that’s what I think. The Bible also says pride and gluttony are wrong, but I am occasionally guilty of both. Jesus came to die for gay people just like He came to die for me.
– I think prescribed prayer in public schools is a bad thing because the state has no business telling people how to pray. If Muslims ever out-populate Christians, I would hate for the Christian kids to have to pray in a Muslim fashion. Of course, any child can pray any time in public school; but they simply need to have God as the only hearer. That’s who it is for anyway.
– As for condemning people to hell, I’m going to leave that to God. I believe in a God of justice and grace. I kind of go with the old line that if someone goes to hell it’s because they chose it, not because God sent them there. Do you have to trust your life to Jesus or you go to hell? That’s what the Bible seems to say, but I trust God to do what is right by His children — that’s all of us.
Holly then mentioned the recent story about James Dobson and others seeking to get Richard Cizik, a vice president with the National Association of Evangelicals, fired for leading the organization to speak out about man-made global warming. I was disgusted by Dobson and compatriots. Three cheers for Cizik and for his boss, Leith Anderson, refusing to fire him.
Thank you, Holly, for reminding us Christians to stand up publicly to oppose the un-Christlike behavior of our fellow believers. Of course, my behavior is not always Christlike either, so I am depending on grace, the grace that came to Earth through Jesus of Nazareth.
Of course, I remain anonymous because I fear the retribution of intolerant Christian fundamentalists. I wish it were not so.
Jesus really does need a better PR team. Of course, no matter who is on the team, they will blunder from time to time. It is so important to take responsibility for the times when we or one who supposedly speaks for us, misspeaks.
Absolutely one of the best posts I’ve seen from a devout Christian. I don’t happen to agree with your religious belief, or your stance on homosexuality, but I agree wholeheartedly with the spirit of your post.
The burn-in-hell attitude of so many Christians is antithetical to the teachings of Christ, just as the “Jihad” attitude of radical Moslems is antithetical to the teachings of Mohammed. I’m reminded of something Gandhi said: “I’ve found we’re all such sinners, it’s best if punishment is left up to God.”
Jesus was crucified because his message was offensive. He never hesitated to talk about Judgment Day, repentance or hell.
Christians are called to be salt and light in a dying world. I Corinthians 6:9, 10 says, “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
I think it’s my job to lovingly warn people of the truth–both heterosexual sinners and homosexual sinners (everybody). That message got Jesus killed, and it may get me killed, but I still have to proclaim it no matter how offensive it is.
Yes, Bill, Jesus message was offensive – but to whom? It was offensive to the religious, the ones who heaped judgment on others but kept the rules and looked good themselves. If Jesus was like the Religious Right, he would have started an anti-prostitution campaign. Instead, he befriended a prostitute – and offended the religious, who were certain he was not from God or he “would have known she was a prostitute.” See if you can think of one time when Jesus has a harsh word toward someone who is not either a religious leader or is using religion to take advantage of others. That is the message that got Jesus killed: challenging the cold hearts of the religious elite while loving those the religious wanted nothing to do with.
How profoundly we miss the point of Jesus’ example: he confronts the religious and befriends the immoral. We confront the immoral and befriend the religious.
Result: the immoral think Jesus hates them, the religious think they please God by “taking a stand” over things Jesus himself barely mentions.
Remember, he is the example. He is what salt and light is supposed to look like. And to the world he says, “Come unto me, you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.” To the insiders, he says, “Unless you repent, you shall all likewise perish” and “You must be born again.”
Monte- While Jesus did occasionally warn someone who was not of the religious elite, just about all of his words for the religious leaders of the day were scathing. You definitely have the gist of things correct.
Jesus’ radically inclusive love was very controversial in his day and in ours. What got Jesus crucified besides His amazing love for us and our need for redemption and restoration, was claiming to be God and befriending marginalized people. What an interesting combination!
“How profoundly we miss the point of Jesus’ example: he confronts the religious and befriends the immoral. We confront the immoral and befriend the religious.”
I was going make a similar comment myself, but you said it better that I would have. Thank you!
Thanks, Glenn! You encouraged me!
A.D., thanks very much for the Digg tip. I decided to learn more about it, and found this WordPress FAQ helpful:
How do I digg?
You may know all about it – but it showed me how to put a Digg icon right in a post. Thanks for getting it started.
Thanks, everyone, for your comments. Some great food for thought. Some great truth.
One of the things I face is that I probably could be considered part of the “religious elite” of today. Not that I’m widely known, but I have a place of influence within a large, established religious organization. I feel a real burden to be a Jesus person, not an organization person. This blog is one way I do that, but I’m also trying to be that person inside the elite. Your prayers are appreciated.
Monte, I know very little about the digg stuff, so thanks for the link. And your words provided the qoute of the day — “How profoundly we miss the point of Jesus’ example: he confronts the religious and befriends the immoral. We confront the immoral and befriend the religious.”
[...] Alien Drums [...]
Thanks to all of you. I needed to hear this today. I grow and learn from my online community, but how I wish I had people like you to spend time with in person. I have become so weary of people adding so much of their crap to this beautiful message of love that Christ has given us, that I have no desire to go to church anymore. I love Jesus, but have become hurt too often from christians.
I love the simple beauty of what you just wrote — “I love Jesus.” I think part of the problem in some churches is that some people really have not falling in love with Jesus or they’ve let that love grow faint. Of course, in saying that, we are using “love” in its standard usage in our culture. If we love in the “agape” sense, the self-sacrificing kind of love spoken of in Scripture, that puts a different twist on it. I wonder if I love Jesus in that way, the self-sacrificing way. I think sometimes I do and sometimes my actions show something different. Maybe if we can love that way it will help us tolerate better the Christians who, like me at times, are un-Christlike. Sorry, I got rolling with a thought there. As always, it’s good to hear from you. Enjoyed your post today. It made me want some Pasta Primavera.
[...] March 12th, 2007 My friend at the a-muse-ing blog has again gotten me to thinking. She responded with the following to some of us writing on a previous post: [...]
Thank you and your friend. This post expresses much of what so many of us Christians think. Well said! I hope you don’t mind if I link to this post.
I would love for you to do so.
[...] http://aliendrums.wordpress.com/2007/03/09/taking-an-agnostics-challenge/ [...]
Good site!!!
[...] THOU SHALL NOT JUDGE [...]